Training day dilemmas

go on then... who moved it?

I've moved it. I'm trying ot call Chris now to see what can be done to repair the damage done by our fucking around with his day .

Good on the phone call and moving.

No comment on the rest...

Well somebodies really pissed Chris off to the point of saying he's going ot jack it all in . A player of his calibre who's prepared ot organise events is someone we should be working with to widen the base of events, standards and players not pissing them off.

It would appear this is directly in contravention of our stated aims , I'll report more about it when I hear from him .

Yes... but if he's actively working against something being WW2 (as he seems to be) then that is also against our aims.

Also as has been said many times, nobody can try and hold us to ransom over this. That includes the 6 of us.

Gadge has not tried to hold us to ransom. He has purely stated that he will not attend if he has to teach modern techniques. He has most definately not said that SH must also not teach modern techniques... though of course several of us would prefer that.

It seems that in some ways here SH is acting a little like a spoiled brat having a tantrum. A real shame considering the good he's done so far. I expected better of him.

Hmmm, actually thinking of it I got the feeling that "my way or the highway" seems to be a trait I've seen before in him. I got that feeling from him when I declined to go as a Russian to his next TD. There was no... okay perhaps we can make it an all allied event... it was just "Fine... goodbye".

Absolute bollox IMHO

My mobile 07967025231 if you'd like ot discuss.

Well you know him better than me. Which means in some way you know best, but in other ways you also can be less objective.

I really couldn't care less as I'm not going to the event whether its on or not, or whether it teaches go go dancing.

What I do care about is someone trying to shift the blame on to a CiA organiser when that is NOT a fair appraisal of the situation.

Sorry, I am too busy right now to chat about it. Plus I HATE using the phone at work in an open office.

As I said to Gadge on the phone earlier, its a question of perception. Look at it from the punters point of view.

Whose fault does it look like?

I repeat all i've said is that i am unhappy teaching modern HM forces proceedures and techniques to joe public.

Sorry but i wont do that, i'm not Stirling Services and its not productive to wwii airsoft.

I'm happy to teahc what was asked of me in a period style but i'm not going to run a TA recruit weekend, been there done that.

I was aksed to do four lessons. None of which will affect th eday by being taught '40s'.

Cam and concealemt. as per 40s uk manual, it make sno sense to teahcmodern techniques that were not used then and with kit and equipment that did not exist then as out lot will be wearing 40s kit.

Formations, i can still teach these, but the ones that the amry used then and the right...

Hand signals , for those formations, these again havent changed

Fire and movement, this *shoudl* be done 40s style wiht a rifle and gun group. Modern drills rely on *everybody* having rapid fire weapoons and dont require an mg team. If we want everyone trianed to play liek that,.. break out the hi-caps.

I only said i wodnt do it when Chris said it would be better for me not to attend if i didnt want to teach 1990s drills.

His call , not mine, he chucked a mardy.

now if hes giving up airsoft cos *one* person isnt doing it his way i question his value and peace of mind.

As it is he has four instructors (five with me) and 25 (ish) peopel, several of which have miliatry experience. a 6 ish to 1 recruit to instructor ratio is amazing and if his lads know there stuff they shudl be able to teach 30 with not fall out.

(i teach skills to 30 people five days a week for five hours a day)

So it snot liek a lack of instructors makes it impossible.

I am personally *ethically* unhappy about teaching modern drills to joe public. Sorry thats just the way it is. if i knew it was going to be a British Amry Skill a t arms pahse one weekend i'd have never have agreed to it.

As it stands its wwii in name only and in relaity its TA training in fancy dress.

It looks liek stubblehoppes fault.

is not a cia event

I wa sgoing along to do a favour

Its gotn othing to do with us other than that.

Whose fault does it look like?

Nobody's right now... except SH as he's not named anyone and its not leaked.

If the full truth got out then it would be clear that we have not been unreasonable. Partial truths could end up either way.

It would be interesting to hear what people really thought on the issue of WW2 training or not... I know that some of the guys that have listed as coming have had plenty of modern training already and quite probably would prefer to have 40s style in this case. (Off hand, I'm thinking of John M and Morgs, but there are bound to be others. If I was going I'd want it... done plenty of modern stuff with Stirling)

However lets not think that way yet.

It would be much better for SH to calm down, see sense and just run the event without Gadge, if thats the only way for it to happen. Though its a crying shame if he thinks that way.

I know Dieselmonkey had zero interest once he found out it was modern training.

WTF? What's going on? I go to Hereford for a few hours and everything goes weird.....

Seems like a lot of knee-jerking going on here.

i only said i was unhappy teaching modern techniques at a wwii day

obviously my opinion means so much chris has decided to leave airsoft.

Or am i missing something.

Knee jerking on all sides....

Doesn't seem to me that Gadge is knee jerking at all... he's not thrown the dummy out of the pram or anything...

The only knee jerk is from SH

I've spoken ot Chris , Gareth's approach esp at this last hour has deeply upset him . I think the truth is in heart he isn't one for putting himself forward much and organising these TDs is a big leap for him .

He's looked ot involve us , and getting messages "from CiA" about what he perceives as the quality of the event has made him loose confidence big style in his ability to do them . Maybe a bit weak but thats how it is . The leaving airsoft thing is more ot do with embarrasment having spoken to him .

He's goingot have a re think overnight , and hopefully continue with the event , I'll know for sure tommorrow .

Oh he can piss off then, sorry but the mans a cock i was very polite and reasonable.

I take no responsibility whatever for his inability to put a show together or accept that someone has a different opinion,

I will happily repost *every* pm here to show that i've been nothing but lovely to the bloke.

I have *nothing* to hide.

If everybody else things 1990s training is the way forward then perhaps im in the wrong hobby, i thought this was the wwii airsoft community?

Well, maybe we should let the punters decide that, eh?

It would be good to see the PMs Gadge. Obviously there's something you've said in there that's hit a raw nerve. Not knowing Chris from Adam I can't really make a character judgement but it all seems a little odd from my perspective.

from me:

So to confirm I'm doing four lessons:

Cam and concelament
Hand signal
Section formations
Fire and manouvre

20 - 30 mins each lesson?

I'll also be doing mine very wwii, e.g. gun group/rifle group not charlie/delta

I'm putting together a miniature rifle section (40mm models) and german mg team to demonstrate on at the moment.

Has anyone though to teach movement, ;leopeard crawl etc...

From: stubblehopper
To: Gadge
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:14 am
Subject: Re: TD2 Quote message
Confirmed, however, myself and Pete have had this discussion before, and decided to teach evrything as per modern British army manuals, not ww2. the reasons being, that its a game at the end of the day: and we want to win the games using the best available tactics that we are both familiar with, we've both done junior and senior Brecon and already know the lesson plans off by heart, plus you've got a mixture of allies and axis troops all with different section battle techniques, its only going to lead to confusion and lots of silly questions from the people being instructed.

Its up to you but I'd prefer you to stick to the modern stuff for the moment. When this hobby gets bigger, which it will given time, then we could go over to ww2 tactics and teach 3 different sets of drills for the respective groups US, Brit and German seperately, but when you have an amalgamation of people like we do at the moment, I just feel its a bit too impractilce, plus we've already done a TD and taught modern drills to many of the people coming at the weekend.

regards

Chris

From: Gadge
To: stubblehopper
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:15 am
Subject: Re: TD2
I see your point but it sort of runs against everything Yith and I want to do with CiA.

Point being we want to do WWii airsoft events and remove as much modern stuff as possible.

I see what you are saying and where you are coming from. I'd like to move towards ww2 tactics eventually, but at this weekend, you have Germans, US and Brits all with differing tactics at squad level, that is a receipe for complete confusion.

I think what you have to consider is, using this as a sticking plaster in terms of getting people to think and to move like soldiers.

At the moment, people are just turning up to events and having a blat. At least this is a start, and ww2 tactics will evolve from this, I promise, but that training needs to be in seperate squads of Brits, US and Germans. if we put the effort in, and attact more people into coming along we can do that for sure.

Its very early days, and there will be more of these kind of things on the horizon in the near future, as long as we work together to make this one a success.

Patrolling and ambush methods don't really change and haven't done so since the end of the second world war.

As far as cam and concealment is concerned, what we want people to try and do is to spead a little cam cream on their faces and distribute it with a baby wipe or moist paper towel and try and look as if they have been in battle for a few days, dirty, darkend faces and hands is what we're after not Tiger stripe faces, I'm right there with you on that.

I'm always willing to change things and listen to comments, if you really want to try it, you do British squad tactics and I'll get the Germans doing "Reihe" or row tactics which they used in the second world war, I just feel its going to complicate matters. Let me know your thoughts

regards

Chris

Sent :: Message
From: Gadge
To: stubblehopper
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:44 am
Subject: Re: TD2
I'll have to consider a proper reply here Chris as it is I'm really not comfortable with teaching folk modern British army drills.

If I wanted to do that I'd still be a cadet instructor and not running wwii games. I dont really think its appropriate to be honest.

I see wwii's soldiers as citizen soldiers with a small amount of training, especially at the late war stage we do events for.

I'm worried abut training gus to move like soldiers when its the wrong sort of soldiers then having to un train it out of them.

let me have a think about it.

Sent :: Message
From: Gadge
To: stubblehopper
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:43 am
Subject: Re: TD2
I've spoke to Yith and he feels the same as I do.

Basically I dont think as a Cia organiser its right for me to do things in a completely modern way (e.g. its ludicrous to teach cam and concealment with cam cream).

Pity we hadnt cleared this up earlier I guess.

I think the argument that its a game and wanting to win via the 'best tactics' is exaclty what we *dont* want at cia TBH otherwise we'd be playing open days and not trying to recreate the feel of the forties.

I'm still happy to do this but as an orgnaiser of WWII events I dont feel I should be teaching a modern skills set when it actually damages what we're trying to do by doing so.

We want people to be using the MG as a base of fire etc, patrolling in accurate ways (not like they are scooting through basra), camming up like 40s commados (we had a few guys in modern cam creme at Arnhem which annoyed us as it just looked stupid on the day)

I just feel teaching layers to act like modern soldiers makes it much less wwii and more like a stirling event in fancy dress or TA recruit cadre for me..

I will do this but I wont be able to (or rather I'm unwilling to) teach modern skillsets currenly in use with HM forces

Hope you understand.

OK then perhaps, it would be better if you did not come at all, I think that the important thing here is that this should be fun for everyone conserned, as it is I think you are making it more difficult than it should be. The other option you have is to run it yourself and I'll not bother coming myself, the choice is yours. Please don't take this the wrong way, as I've no intenion of falling out with anyone over this. Let me have your decision, as I have other things I could be doing this weekend.

kind regards

Chris

From: Gadge
To: stubblehopper
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:46 pm
Subject: Re: TD2
Fine Chris I'll leave it if that what you want.

Best take Dieselmonkey of the booking thread to as he's not interest in learning modern drills.

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